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Author Topic: Frustrating starting problem still happening  (Read 24707 times)
VintageHunter
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« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2016, 06:37:05 PM »

hope you get it sorted James.
question for you.....if you turn the key to "on" position, put the bike in 1st gear, pull in the clutch....WHEN the "buggy-ness" is occuring, will it turn on for you?
Good to read this and hear how the neutral sensor is removed/installed. Waiting for the parts to arrive but hopefully going to be doing this and replacing the sidestand switch on Sunday. I really hope it's the cause because the CB1 has been playing up this week after behaving fine all last week.

Monday fired on the button to and from work, Tuesday morning just cranking from cold (unusual as the problem usually occurs when hot) no life and needed a bump, Tuesday evening at work nothing, needed a bump. Charged the battery overnight. Wednesday morning nothing with full battery, bumped again, Weds evening started on the button. Each time the bike is bumped successfully it'll backfire and then start on the button like a charm and ride well. Each time the problem occurred I tried all the switches, sidestand, moving the wiring round the headstock, starting in gear with clutch in but didn't make a difference.

If the new switches aren't the cure, based on your replies and scrutinising the manual I'm thinking it's going to be unwinding the loom tape to try to find a short as amorti did with his, the pulse coil is acting up or the CDI spark unit is going bad. If so I'm considering buying something else for everyday use and taking the CB1 off the road as a long term restoration project...or selling the bike on to a friend who's always wanted one (I'd rather not though, I've spent a small fortune on parts!)

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JamesM
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« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2016, 06:49:45 PM »

Thanks VintageHunter, I've loved owning this bike for the past 15 years and still find it a blast to ride, but these starting issues are annoying. I guess it could be worse, the bike runs great when it does start! Smiley

When the buggyness is occurring the ignition will engage and the engine will crank in first with the clutch pulled in, key turned to ON, but it'll just turn and turn with no spark. Only thing that works is a mighty bump, usually followed by a backfire and cough. Then it'll start on the slightest touch of the starter. It's gotta be the spark unit not sending pulse to the ignition coils. Why bumping (it normally takes a few) fixed the problem, is a mystery
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VintageHunter
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« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2016, 06:52:09 PM »

humm....wow...then it's a different "gremlim" thats attacked your bike. Maybe the cousin or brother of mine...
those guys do get around don't they.
I hear what you are sayin' bout the "issues" and how annoying they can be on older bikes.
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Sixdog
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« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2016, 09:37:27 PM »

james have you checked and cleaned all your ground wire terminals?   The starter does draw plenty of amps so other electrical circuits could be hurting for amperage/voltage...

It's a process of elimination.
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1979 CBX RED, 1979 CBX SILVER, 1982 Suzuki GS1000sz, 1984 Honda VF1000F Interceptor, 1990 Honda CB1, 1993 CBR900RR, 1995 CB1000 Big One, 2007 CBR1000RR Repsol, 2007 HD Fatboy, 1976 Kawasaki KZ900
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« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2016, 04:15:39 AM »

Hey Sixdog,

I have cleaned them about 6 months ago but will check them again on the weekend. There are two main ground points if I recall, one by the starter, another by the rectifier. Are there any more I'm missing?
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Sixdog
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« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2016, 09:29:05 AM »

I think that's it.... Smiley

The way I see it , It has to be something small. It is so frustrating but once you find it your going to happy and pissed at the same time. I'm sure all the goos folks on this site will continue to help until we find the issue.
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1979 CBX RED, 1979 CBX SILVER, 1982 Suzuki GS1000sz, 1984 Honda VF1000F Interceptor, 1990 Honda CB1, 1993 CBR900RR, 1995 CB1000 Big One, 2007 CBR1000RR Repsol, 2007 HD Fatboy, 1976 Kawasaki KZ900
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« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2016, 12:24:35 PM »

If the bike will start by bumping it but won't when on the starter motor, it sounds like a voltage issue to me.  There is a voltage below which the electronic ignition won't function and if your starter motor is dragging the battery voltage below that point, you won't have spark, even though the engine is spinning on the starter.  Have you taken a voltage reading at the battery while you're cranking the starter?  I'd be interested to see what that number is.  This is a common problem with older Harleys that have been converted from points to electronic ignitions.  A slightly weak battery will get dragged down by the big starter motor and the voltage won't be enough to fire the ignition.

Eric
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JamesM
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« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2016, 08:44:13 AM »

I received the new neutral and sidestand switch end of last week and had a chance to put them in on Sunday. The old neutral switch was definitely worn down and the brass thread / ring terminal were pretty corroded. I cleaned these up and installed the new neutral switch, cleaned the sidestand and all the muck from the chain around the front sprocket. Got the new sidestand switch in and routed, along with spraying contact cleaner into the connections up behind the tank. All functioning correctly.

The result is so far so good! The bike has been starting well and no issues, but will see how it gets on over this week to see if the problem is truly solved (fingers crossed!)

One weird thing, I measured for continuity again at the multiclip and the new sidestand switch checks out. The new neutral switch however is still showing continuity when in gear (not in neutral when it should show continuity) so those readings haven't changed? The neutral switch is definitely working as if I change into 1st gear with the sidestand down, it cuts the engine as its supposed to, so the bike knows its in gear. There is a diode in that connection, I know little of these things but could this be causing it to still show continuity?

Thanks for the info Efreeman, the bike has recently had a new battery. I tested the voltage whilst cranking and it drops to around 11.5v, it sits at 12.9v when resting.
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filterMan
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« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2016, 04:10:01 PM »

When you say you checked continuity on the neutral switch are you measuring it with the lead to the spark unit unplugged or plugged in. If you are measuring it unplugged then that's probably not correct. I would have thought it should read only a few ohms between  the switch lead contact and the chassis or engine. You are correct though, the fact that the light comes on suggest it's all ok.

Are you using a multimeter to measure the resistance and if so what is the reading? I'm not sure what the reading would be plugged in because you have the spark unit which might be leaking a bit back to earth and that might be normal.

Also I'm curious, how do you know there is a diode in the circuit? All I see is the spark unit on the diagram I have, is there another circuit diagram I don't know about?
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JamesM
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« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2016, 08:42:40 AM »

I've been measuring it with the multiclip unplugged from the CDI spark unit, the manual says "Disconnect the connector from the spark unit and conduct these tests at the connector"(page 15-6) - Light Green to Ground wires should have "Continuity in neutral, no continuity in any gear except neutral". I'll try testing it with the clip plugged in to see if this makes a difference.

I am using a multimeter to test it in "continuity" mode, so it beeps when there is continuity in the circuit. It shouldn't beep when the bike is in gear, but it still does. I'll try retesting the ohms resistance too in case the continuity mode is no good. Its a cheap multimeter.

I may be completely talking out of my arse on the diode thing. I saw it in Rigwits "Electricals" post where he talks about a diode potentially causing problems. If you've got the manual there is a electrical starter circuit diagram on page 16-2. I can see a Clutch Switch Diode (7) in line with the neutral switch. I'm novice at this though so I may be misunderstanding it.

Anyway, day 3 of using the bike - she started after work last night and again this morning on the button  Grin

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VintageHunter
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« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2016, 12:26:53 PM »

James?....was it cold or hot today? when she started?
Seems these "electrical" issues occur on the CB-1 when the heat goes up.
things expand...etc..
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filterMan
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« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2016, 04:21:12 PM »

You have measured it correctly but I wouldn't use the continuity checker on your multimeter. Continuity checkers can be unreliable. Instead set your meter to ohms and remove the clip. You should read near zero ohms in neutral and much, much higher, in gear.

I'm guessing you have cured the problem though as it's starting ok.
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JamesM
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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2016, 08:24:37 AM »

Thanks for the info, I will test it on ohms instead, wasn't sure what I was supposed to be looking for with the readings.

Another good start last night and again this morning, seems to be roaring into life easily. Most of these have been from the bike being cold (its back to winter in the UK this week).

Mostly the problem would happen when I went to start the bike in the evening after finishing work, so far so good! I have tried starting after leaving the bike to sit for 20 mins after a long ride home with the engine nice and hot, and it seems to be working.

I'm optimistic but want to run for a few weeks before considering this problem sorted!  Cool

Cheers again everyone for the help! I'm wondering if it was the ground wire ring terminal on the neutral switch / the neutral switch itself being corroded.
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JamesM
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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2016, 02:30:12 PM »

Hey guys,

I thought I'd report in on the fix. I've had 3 weeks of smooth starting, different times of day and different temps / weather conditions. The bike is starting on the button like a champ, no problems so I think we've cured it  Cool

I'll never know if it was the neutral switch itself, the cruddy earth on it, or the sidestand switch, but replacing and cleaning both seems to have done the trick. I suspect one or both "monitored lines" was causing the spark unit to freak out and not send power to the coils intermittently. If anyone else experiences this, hopefully this epically long thread will help Smiley

Cheers again for all the help and patience
James
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VintageHunter
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« Reply #74 on: May 17, 2016, 10:08:14 AM »

I can concur that since replacing only my neutral switch, my CB has started well also. So...perhaps since the common factor here was the neutral switch...maybe that was it? dunno....but glad to hear you have resolved that stubborn start issue.
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